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Jack and Ianto in CoE:Day One - Communication 101
While the class discussed Max Frisch's Homo Faber and Faber's fear of commitment to women, I was covertly reading reactions to last night's episode. The parallels between the book and Torchwood with regards to the Jack/Ianto couple-confusion didn't go by me unnoticed.
Some wondered why Ianto is so clingy and others complained Jack was too detached. If we peel away the outer layer they’ve been neither.
Jack and Ianto are both the Homo Faber archetype of man, which translates to Man the Maker rather than the Homo sapiens, which translates to Man the Wise. They form a relationship with no apparent outlines and neither Ianto nor Jack act wisely when defining those outlines becomes a topic. And no, Ianto is not Ivy nor Sabeth in this analogy, he is one side of Faber and Jack another.
"Ich kannte ihre Vorwürfe und hatte sie satt. Dass ich grundsätzlich nicht heirate, das hatte ich oft genug gesagt, zumindest durchblicken lassen, zuletzt aber auch gesagt,..."
"I was aware of her accusations and was fed up with them. I said often enough that I do not marry on principle, at least I hinted strongly at it, lastly I said it though,..." (*)
Jack is dismissive of Ianto’s comments because he is annoyed that Ianto wants to put them in a category and stick a label on it. We shouldn’t forget that the Human Condition that would apply to Jack must be significantly different from ours due to 3000 years of evolution. Naturally his reactions would come from a different mindset, different neural biochemistry, different set of biological events that lead to the characteristics of a specific society and its individuals. There is an interesting meta about the evolution of the Human Condition right there but it’s not the topic of this post. Out of my head now!
Jack is significantly older than Ianto and has had 10 times more experience with everything than him. I’m not counting the 2000 years underground because even if Jack was conscious the whole time, being buried alive for 2000 years is hardly going to improve one’s people skills. Yet he ignores Ianto’s wishes for reassurance, which is not out of proportion given Jack’s track record, because if you put a name on things, and they change, it always has to be someone’s fault – the end of every good relationship. Maybe he reverted back to a 21st century man with the appropriate emotional baggage and obtuseness who wants to duck and take cover when the c-word hangs in the air. Another thought is that Jack actually thinks Ianto doesn’t think of them as committed and is hurt.
Retorts like: But we are. Does it matter? and What’s your problem? Would suggest that it’s part of the issue. There will be curtain!fic about this, however, not by me.
Maybe it’s a residual 51st century understanding of love or a smokescreen to hide that he’s terrified of feeling enough for someone and that it will gut him when this person dies.
I am dying to find out.
"Ich habe sie immer gefürchtet; was man auch dagegen tut: ihre Verwitterung. Überhaupt der ganze Mensch! – als Konstruktion möglich, aber das Material ist verfehlt: Fleisch ist kein Material, sondern ein Fluch."
"I’ve always feared it; you can’t do anything about it: their decomposition. Actually man as a whole! – a possible design, but the material is flawed: flesh is not a material but a curse." (*)
We know that when Ianto loves someone, he loves unconditionally. We even have the body count to prove it. Ianto is cautiously testing where Jack stands in their relationship and what level of commitment and attachment Jack is comfortable with. Add Ianto’s own reluctance to express his feelings, unless the person he loves is in the middle of death and destruction; you get awkward remarks to cover his own vulnerability by simultaneously scanning for any signs of Jack’s affection and approval. Yeah, that was a grade A sentence, dude. But, he doesn’t need Jack to constantly tell him how much he loves him. According to various interviews a major aspect behind Ianto’s insecurity is Jack’s immortality, Ianto’s infinitesimal short life in comparison and what that essentially means for both of them.
Ianto: He thought we were together – like a couple. He said ‘you two’. The way he said it, huh, you two.
Jack: But we are. Does it matter?
Ianto: Don’t know. It’s all a bit new to me. That’s all.
Had Jack answered with a smile and confirmed Ianto’s thinly veiled question "are we a couple?" the matter would have been resolved. But that would be boring and also very unrealistic. I can totally see one part of fandom puking over the lovesick puppy trying to get his daddy to tell I luv you and another part planning the wedding fic right this moment. Just for the record I don’t approve of either. He is confused with his sexual orientation and insecure in his relationship with Jack, choosing the passive-aggressive approach doesn’t get him anywhere, so we have to wait if we’ll get more clues.
On an unrelated note: the discussion of Ianto’s sexuality is ridiculous. What’s so important about whether he’s gay, straight, gay-for-Jack and straight-for-Lisa, bi or unlabeled? Srsly this annoys me too much to elaborate.
(*) This is not excerpt of an official translation of Homo Faber. All mistakes are mine. If someone has a better translation and would like to share it, feel free to do so.
Some wondered why Ianto is so clingy and others complained Jack was too detached. If we peel away the outer layer they’ve been neither.
Jack and Ianto are both the Homo Faber archetype of man, which translates to Man the Maker rather than the Homo sapiens, which translates to Man the Wise. They form a relationship with no apparent outlines and neither Ianto nor Jack act wisely when defining those outlines becomes a topic. And no, Ianto is not Ivy nor Sabeth in this analogy, he is one side of Faber and Jack another.
"Ich kannte ihre Vorwürfe und hatte sie satt. Dass ich grundsätzlich nicht heirate, das hatte ich oft genug gesagt, zumindest durchblicken lassen, zuletzt aber auch gesagt,..."
"I was aware of her accusations and was fed up with them. I said often enough that I do not marry on principle, at least I hinted strongly at it, lastly I said it though,..." (*)
Jack is dismissive of Ianto’s comments because he is annoyed that Ianto wants to put them in a category and stick a label on it. We shouldn’t forget that the Human Condition that would apply to Jack must be significantly different from ours due to 3000 years of evolution. Naturally his reactions would come from a different mindset, different neural biochemistry, different set of biological events that lead to the characteristics of a specific society and its individuals. There is an interesting meta about the evolution of the Human Condition right there but it’s not the topic of this post. Out of my head now!
Jack is significantly older than Ianto and has had 10 times more experience with everything than him. I’m not counting the 2000 years underground because even if Jack was conscious the whole time, being buried alive for 2000 years is hardly going to improve one’s people skills. Yet he ignores Ianto’s wishes for reassurance, which is not out of proportion given Jack’s track record, because if you put a name on things, and they change, it always has to be someone’s fault – the end of every good relationship. Maybe he reverted back to a 21st century man with the appropriate emotional baggage and obtuseness who wants to duck and take cover when the c-word hangs in the air. Another thought is that Jack actually thinks Ianto doesn’t think of them as committed and is hurt.
Retorts like: But we are. Does it matter? and What’s your problem? Would suggest that it’s part of the issue. There will be curtain!fic about this, however, not by me.
Maybe it’s a residual 51st century understanding of love or a smokescreen to hide that he’s terrified of feeling enough for someone and that it will gut him when this person dies.
I am dying to find out.
"Ich habe sie immer gefürchtet; was man auch dagegen tut: ihre Verwitterung. Überhaupt der ganze Mensch! – als Konstruktion möglich, aber das Material ist verfehlt: Fleisch ist kein Material, sondern ein Fluch."
"I’ve always feared it; you can’t do anything about it: their decomposition. Actually man as a whole! – a possible design, but the material is flawed: flesh is not a material but a curse." (*)
We know that when Ianto loves someone, he loves unconditionally. We even have the body count to prove it. Ianto is cautiously testing where Jack stands in their relationship and what level of commitment and attachment Jack is comfortable with. Add Ianto’s own reluctance to express his feelings, unless the person he loves is in the middle of death and destruction; you get awkward remarks to cover his own vulnerability by simultaneously scanning for any signs of Jack’s affection and approval. Yeah, that was a grade A sentence, dude. But, he doesn’t need Jack to constantly tell him how much he loves him. According to various interviews a major aspect behind Ianto’s insecurity is Jack’s immortality, Ianto’s infinitesimal short life in comparison and what that essentially means for both of them.
Ianto: He thought we were together – like a couple. He said ‘you two’. The way he said it, huh, you two.
Jack: But we are. Does it matter?
Ianto: Don’t know. It’s all a bit new to me. That’s all.
Had Jack answered with a smile and confirmed Ianto’s thinly veiled question "are we a couple?" the matter would have been resolved. But that would be boring and also very unrealistic. I can totally see one part of fandom puking over the lovesick puppy trying to get his daddy to tell I luv you and another part planning the wedding fic right this moment. Just for the record I don’t approve of either. He is confused with his sexual orientation and insecure in his relationship with Jack, choosing the passive-aggressive approach doesn’t get him anywhere, so we have to wait if we’ll get more clues.
On an unrelated note: the discussion of Ianto’s sexuality is ridiculous. What’s so important about whether he’s gay, straight, gay-for-Jack and straight-for-Lisa, bi or unlabeled? Srsly this annoys me too much to elaborate.
(*) This is not excerpt of an official translation of Homo Faber. All mistakes are mine. If someone has a better translation and would like to share it, feel free to do so.
no subject
my future husband is so smart <3
also, everything else, too
i think there is a meta-related comm, but i don't know what it's called (also, i think it hasn't been active in a long time)
you could try torch_wood (although i've found they are... snippy during their moderated post times) or torchwoodcoffee or even jackxianto (if you want a reaction)
no subject
I'll try torch_wood, the other two seem too shippy for this topic to deliver a mostly unbiased discussion.
no subject
there's... there's about 50 fucking billion comms and i don't even know what they are all for
no subject
This seems to be a big deal to some in the slash fandoms. I'm not sure whether it stems from some folk who are still uncomfortable with teh gay, or because they like the idea of TWU LUV so much that THIS relationship is the only one that can possibly count. The number of fic in many fandoms where I've read some variation of, "But I've never loved anyone as much/the same way as I've loved you" is too numerous to count.
That particular theme is a big one from the romance book genre as well. THIS relationship being better/stronger/more loving than any other. If I had to guess, I suppose I'd say it's the wish fulfillment of folk who like the idea of ONE LOVE stronger than all others, with happy little sighs and hearts drawn on their notebooks.
In case I seem too harsh, let me say that I don't mind the whole true love idea up to a certain point. I know, intellectually, that there are other men out there that I could love, but my husband is the center of all things wonderful in my life. Thus, I have a hard time knocking it when I'm living it! And, as someone who lives it, I know it also doesn't come without the occasional disagreement and mutual fuck ups. It's not the fairytale version of TWU LUV, but it's a whole-hearted full partnership.
This is another reason I defend the reasonable domestic fic that are out there. If they are a couple, then they'll act like a couple no matter who they are. At least in private, and there is more than one way to act like a couple; not everything includes hanging all over each other, smooching, and saying ILU all the time. (Those are the domestic fic that I avoid.)
Hope I didn't digress too much, but it's the end of the day and my thoughts are plentiful, but scattered!
no subject
Absolutely not. :)
...it's the wish fulfillment of folk who like the idea of ONE LOVE stronger than all others...
This. And then there is the other half claiming that this is unrealistic and that Ianto has to identify with a sexual orientation. Both sides are too extreme for my taste.
no subject
Have to say I loved this comment being buried alive for 2000 years is hardly going to improve one’s people skills.
no subject
But! That won't make me write curtain!fic or wedding!fic or daddyissues!fic. It's more complex than that. I like that you're pointing out that coupledom may have entirely different meanings to Jack -- the significance of that should not be underestimated. On the other hand, I would argue back that Jack's been around our time longer than the 51st century.
Also, have to ask, this: Had Jack answered with a smile and confirmed Ianto’s thinly veiled question "are we a couple?" the matter would have been resolved. This is interesting, because if you look at the dialogue you quote, it's apparent to me that Jack does confirm that they're a couple. And Ianto is the one who shrugs it off. It's only once Ianto's done that that Jack says, "I don't like that word". Not when he first brings it up.
My thoughts, I fear, are a bit random this morning, but the point stands. As for your comment about the discussion of Ianto's sexuality -- it's exactly opposite to what RTD has always shown, which is that sexuality is fluid and personal and kind of irrelevant in the spectrum of who you are. So while the discussion as pertains to Ianto seems moot to me, I can understand fandom wanting to discuss it. Because too often, tv producers make "cop out" moves when dealing with this subject matter. And, reading the papers on Torchwood yesterday, a disturbing many felt the need to reference the Day One snog without any context, as if it was highly remarkable. Just leaving you with thoughts.
I'm going to put your self-proclaimed netiquette to the test by pointing out that in your first Faber translation, "grundsätzlich" should be translated as "principle", not "principal". The latter means "head of a school" or "primarily", the former means "prinzipe" (I think is the correct German spelling?). Since you use "principal" in combination with "on", you have to use the former. The latter can only be used to translate "grundsätzlich" if you use it as an adjective, "principally".
Also, "Ianto's infintessimally short live", should be "life".
::points to icon::
no subject
Secretly, I've been starting to agree with others that say Jack is simply hurt by Ianto's commitment issues. But don't tell anyone. ;)
I'm really excited to find out how they'll play that out.
This is interesting, because if you look at the dialogue you quote, it's apparent to me that Jack does confirm that they're a couple. And Ianto is the one who shrugs it off.
My focus was more on Jack's annoyed Does it matter? And you are right, of course, Jack does confirm it. They're both being very honest about their feelings while shrugging it off at the same time when the other doesn't react in the desired way.
Ianto says that it's new to him and implies he's unsure as to how he feels about being identified as a couple. He says as much but in the same sentence he tries to play it cool and ridicules Rupesh's remarks.
Jack also answers honestly and confirms that they indeed are a couple but then he challenges Ianto with his question and Ianto basically apologizes (It's all a bit new to me. That's all.). I’m not criticizing their dancing around each other, though, it rings true to them and the on and off relationship they’ve had.
Your Iantoness is awesome, many testify to it and have praised on several occasions. Re: "principle" is spelled "prinzipiell" in German.
no subject
Re. German... I'm confused. I know my German's faily and I'm out of practice, but:
"prinzipiell" would be "on basis of my principles", right? And
"prinzipe" would be "my principles"? (well, with the personal pronoun, but I think you catch my drift)
no subject
This corect, only that "principles" would be spelled "Prinzipien". I can see the problem: there is one word for the adjective and the noun in English and two in German.
principle (adj.) and principle (noun)
prinzipiell (adj./adv) and Prinzip (noun, singular) and Prinzipien (noun, plural)
"Prinzipe" would be the correct plural form if Prinzip were a German word, but it derives from the Latin word principium (beginning) and therefor doesn't follow the principle rules of German grammar.
no subject
And yes. My German is faily (it always was) but I knew there was something like that. Thanks for the info!